can an abscess be cancer?

dllfb · Regular Joined: 24 Jul 2008 Posts: 42

Hello...I've been reading this forum and I want you to know that my heart goes out to all of you who have had to deal with this cancer....be it your own or family members.
This is my mom's story....
I am wondering if anyone has heard if an abscess on the liver found during a CAT scan, that can actually be cancer. My mom who is 88 had been experiencing a dull pain when she lies down on the right side under her ribs, for about a month. She eats well and there are no other symptoms. After waiting in Emerg in a southern Ontario hospital for two days of tests and seeing two Emerg doctors, they both said she had some stones in her gallbladder and a spot on her liver. The blood test showed that the liver was functioning well. After that the Emerg doctor ordered a CAT scan he said the radiologist's report stated there was an abscess on/in the liver and my mom would have to see a surgeon to get it aspirated. After this emerg. dr. left us I followed him so we weren't in earshot of my parents and asked if there was any way this could be cancer. He stated that on the radiologist report it said abscess...if it was something more serious they would have used the word mass or tumour. Well, you can only image how much at ease that put me. We had finally gotten an appointment with the surgeon on Monday...nine days later and the surgeon starts out by telling us about the "mass" that was found. I just about ....~ He had the same report as the Emerg doctors. After his "talk" about having the radiologist do an aspiration...tomorrow..Friday..I asked him about this word "mass". I told him what the GP had said about the word "abscess" being used in the report and not "mass"....his reply was not to listen to them down at emerg. Nice! So that has left us in turmoil again.
We had believed it was an abscess due to a fall my mother had in the fall
pushing her elbow into her ribs...right in the area of the pain now. She bruises so very easily. Anyway, after a week of pain, at that time, we took her to the doctor who ordered an xray, and it came back that all was ok. The pain subsided until it returned a month ago.
Has this happened to anyone else? Can an aspiration detect cancer or is it just biopsy? Why wouldn't they just do a biopsy? It's awful when you are in there listening to the Dr....your mind goes blank and after he leaves all these questions come into your mind. Thanks for your input.
My prayers are with all of you.

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brainman · Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:03 pm Post subject: Re: can an abscess be cancer?

dllfb, I am very sorry about your mother's health concerns. I believe it is safe to say that any radiologist worth his/her salary could tell the difference between a abscess and a cancer. An abscess is a wound some times containing a puss-like liquid whereas a cancer (in the liver) is a solid tumor. This does not mean that an abscess should be ignored. An abscess on the liver can cause a lot of the same problems that a cancer can.

As for an aspiration vs a biopsy, I many cases doctors use aspiration AS the means for a biopsy. They look for cancer cells in the fluid that they aspirate.

Can a abscess cause a cancer? I don't think so. Can a cancer cause an abscess? Maybe but the cancer would be distinct enough on a CAT Scan.

My best wishes for your mother.
_________________
Jim
Site Administrator and long-term cancer survivor
1992 Astrocytoma grade 2, left motor strip
2005 Recurrence this time said to be an Oligodendroglioma grade 3, same location.
My Story Part 1: http://cancerforums.net/viewtopic.php?p=7350
My Story Part 2: http://cancerforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=8029
Blog http://jimhawkinsport.blogspot.com/

dllfb · Regular Joined: 24 Jul 2008 Posts: 42

Thanks so much brainman...that puts me somewhat as ease...still why would the surgeon say what he did? "Don't believe those drs in emerg."
That really upsets me. I understand the theory that one never knows until the results of a biopsy comes back.....but this is ridiculous....we have been worrying so much since that visit Monday. He even said that he didn't think it was an abscess....yet why would that be stated in the report from the radiologist???? Not that I saw the report physically...but that's what the Emerg Dr. said was on it as I stated in my opening comment.
Thanks so much again.....I just wonder about the competence of some Drs.No compassion what so ever...do they even bother reading the report??? So many questions...so much stress that's undue maybe....wonder if they'd be more careful with their words if it was their mother????
Sorry I know there are some excellent Drs out there!

dllfb · Regular Joined: 24 Jul 2008 Posts: 42

Well this is an update. Friday was the aspiration. Wanted to write but needed some space because I was a nervous wreck. When we arrived at 6:30 a.m. as we were told to, we didn't realize we had to wait 3 hours for our turn. That was the easy part! My mom doesn't speak English too well so I insisted on going along, along with my father to the ultrasound room incase a translation was necessary. They had us sit outside the room, but what was being said could be heard clearly. First the ultrasound tech. said to the nurse...oh here's the abscess. Better get the drain and stuff for the radiologist when he arrives. yadda yadda. When the radiologist arrived, he too said oh yes that's an abscess and we have to get that puss out of there...yadda yadda....A little while later the radiologist came out of the room and came over to us and told us that he needed my mom to be moved over to the CAT scan machine because he was having problems incerting the tube properly. After being in the CAT scan room he came out again and told us that he saw what the problem was...the gallbladder was so impacted with stones that it's caused an infection which had spread to the liver. But he couldn't get the tube in the right place there ... so, we had to go back to the ultrasound room and try again. When we got to out side the ultra sound room my mom was lying in the bed all flushed crying about how much pain she was in. So, as the radiologist walked by, I said "Doctor, my mom is in terrible pain here, can you give her something for it please?" He suggested demerol...ok. After about half of an hour to let it take affect, they took her in again.
After this second time in the ultrasound room, he stated that he aspirated a little because the stuff was so thick and he couldn't get it out. But they would be testing that to see what kind of bacteria it was so that they could give her the right antibiotics. He stated that he was surprised that the
surgeon hadn't given her a prescription already. He said he'd call him to get recommendations and ask for a healthcare nurse to be sent to my moms home to help with the dressings etc. as needed. He had the tube in but he wanted to make sure it was in the right place so another trip back to the CAT machine. To our dismay...geez...the tube popped out.
(Im sweating just typing about this!)...He said that he was behind in his schedule and had other patients waiting...so maybe it would be best if we went home and tried this again in a couple of days....I said no way! We are here now and my mom is drugged....we will wait. He agreed that he'd in the meantime he'd catch up and talk to the surgeon about what to do and the type of antibiotics....so we waited three more hours and another demerol needle in the day surgery waiting area. The surgeon did not show "because he was in surgery...??" (no doubt). Then a lady from the CAT scan room came and said it was time to go there again...so we waited in the CAT waiting room for another eternity as they worked on mamma...finally I hear the radiologist say, "There we go it's done." My dad and I breathed a sigh of relief as we heard my mom say "finally"...in her thick Italian accent. Then the radiologist came out and I said...yes finally we're done...he replied that they discovered it wasn't an abscess, and it was a tumor. At this point I was in an absolute stunned state and my dad who is 86 started shaking and crying and I had to hold him up...the radiologist touched him on the shoulder sympathetically and said..."let's hope it's benign." We had to wait four hours in the day surgery room .. just incase of a bleeding problem. The surgeon finally came and said that now we could do is wait a week or so for the results of the biopsy and he was finished the case at this point because we would be needing a liver specialist. NICE! And walked off....I had to follow him and request a px of pain meds to take home for her. (Ya think he might have offered without me asking???) I asked if my mother should get any antibiotics for the gallbladder that was filled with stones and infected...he replied we'll wait for the results first. We didn't tell the whole story to mamma...we just said that we were waiting for the results of the aspiration. She wanted to kinow what happened and why the tube wasn't placed in like they had told us earlier. I replied that they took out the stuff in the hospital. Anyway...I'm an only child. Have no aunts, uncles etc. A single mom with two boys to look after, and a plus at this point is I live right beside my parents. They mean everything to me and I love them so, very, very much.....I'm a nervous wreck and my family doctor has started me on antidepressants, hope they kick in real soon. I took off the bandaging yesterday, and was surprised to find three different holes. I thought they were trying the same hole.... Does this hospital sound like an incompetent one to you? I don't even want to wait for the results of the test and take her to another more specialized hospital about one hour away. I mentioned it to her today. She is in such pain still...two days later. She said that if she knew that it would be this painful, she would not have gone through with this test. She doesn't want to go anywhere. She has had it already. I am sick at heart and can't imagine what will happen if this comes out to be malignant. Another worry is that they poked and ruptured the liver area so much that now if there is something bad...it will spread quicker. God Help US! So here we are...not any further than we were three weeks ago...when another radiologist also said that the xray, ultrasound and CAT scan that were taken...was an abscess....what the heck should I do now? And how many times did they look at her liver with the CAT and ultrasound Friday and not detect a tumour and say it was an abscess instead??? I feel so lost and just don't understant all list....I'm just hurting so right now...don't know what to do...and very scared.

brainman · Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:02 am Post subject: Re: can an abscess be cancer?

Goodness dllfb, your mother was put through so much!! Are you at a major medical center? I just wonder why the gallbladder problem was not found before this! Did they even mention surgery to remove it since it seems to be the cause of a lot of your mother's problems? I would certainly ask. Maybe you mentioned this and I just missed it Embarassed

You and your mother continue to be in my thoughts and prayers.
_________________
Jim
Site Administrator and long-term cancer survivor
1992 Astrocytoma grade 2, left motor strip
2005 Recurrence this time said to be an Oligodendroglioma grade 3, same location.
My Story Part 1: http://cancerforums.net/viewtopic.php?p=7350
My Story Part 2: http://cancerforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=8029
Blog http://jimhawkinsport.blogspot.com/

idobelieveinfairies · Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:21 am Post subject: Re: can an abscess be cancer?

I would go straight to her primary care physician and explained all this to him or print this and take it to him. She should not have to be in pain and your primary should be able to help. Also your primary can tell ever who is doing the biopsy to make it ASAP. Be firm with all the doctors you come in contact. You know the old saying "he who squeeks loudest". Hope this helps.Like brainman said go to the largest local hospitals emergency room.

dllfb · Regular Joined: 24 Jul 2008 Posts: 42

Thanks for the replies ido and brainman....they mean a lot.
Well, we are in a town of about 180,000 people so it's not a hick town by all means. I took it upon myself to start things without biopsy results this morning. I have all intension of taking my mom to emerg at McMaster (Hamilton, Ontario) which is more of a cancer hospital on Wed and is about 1 hour away. She is in pain right now, and I think she was prodded so much on Friday that she'd better have a couple of days to recover. She doesn't want to go, but I said...she just has to sit in the van then sit in the wheelchair....and waiting room. Can't be as bad as waiting the 9 hours we did in emerg three weeks ago. I went to the hospital this morning and ordered all the paperwork and films. They told me I'd have to wait a few days, so I lied and told them we had an appointment at McMaster tomorrow at noon. (sorry God, hope u understand). So they will make sure they are ready by 10 tomorrow am.
After that, without an appointment, I went to my family doctor. He was very good in seeing me and had to sit down because my story was making him weezy as well. He said he didn't understand why she wasn't offered pain killers without me having to ask....maybe one dr. thought the other was doing something about it...bull. In all his experience as a dr...he has never seen a liver abscess. He believes it is a tumour and he showed me the reports that he rec'd from the surgeon and the drs in emerg....they all tend to cover their butts but putting down that it "could" be a tumour...or it 'could be" an abscess....unfortunately that is not what most of them told us not even on the radiologist on Friday. He has no reports from Friday yet. He explained to me that because of the politics involved...the ones who are in the most serious condition get the beds. My mom should have been placed in the hospital right away if they believed it could have been an abscess, when we showed up in emerg three weeks ago....but they have patients who are worse off. NIce~ He said even though he's a family dr. his mother had the same kind of thing happen...and she was misdiagnosed with something...waiting and so on.....for nothing. But if you're a lawyer...you're sure to get better treatment.
Anyway. My final question was...if this was your mother...would you take her to McMaster even before we got the results DR. He finally replied yes. That I have the right idea. I'll have all the hard copy film and they can start looking at that there. And do some tests of their own while we are waiting for the biopsy results.
In the meantime...my mother has never been a pill person...she takes her vitamins and even though she has osteo problems and back aches etc. she has to be pretty bad before she takes a tylenol. Funny thing is she always would say..."pills aren't good for the liver you know!?"
I have heard about the pain patch and suggested it and the Dr. is calling the pharmacy with a px for that this pm. She hates being irregular and God forbid take having to take another pill for irregularity. Oh my goodness...this is going to be so difficult if we will have bigger eggs to fry than this in a few days.
Thanks for your ear...also am wondering if there is anyone reading this that has had treatment at McMaster and what they thought of it there.
Thanks for giving me an ear....eye????

brainman · Posted: Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:01 pm Post subject: Re: can an abscess be cancer?

Your mother's experience does defy all logic. It sounds like a major component in your difficulties is the health care system she is under. I applaud your assertive efforts to get help for her. She does need someone to be her advocate.
_________________
Jim
Site Administrator and long-term cancer survivor
1992 Astrocytoma grade 2, left motor strip
2005 Recurrence this time said to be an Oligodendroglioma grade 3, same location.
My Story Part 1: http://cancerforums.net/viewtopic.php?p=7350
My Story Part 2: http://cancerforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=8029
Blog http://jimhawkinsport.blogspot.com/

Queensland Girl · Posted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: can an abscess be cancer?

Hello dllfb,

I'm so sorry to hear of the drama, pain and suffering your Mum is going through. I am hoping that the new hospital and new doctors will do the right thing and your Mum gets the treatment she deserves.

I admire your tenacity and wish you all the best outcome.
_________________
Regards,

Queensland Girl

Mum diagnosed June 1993, surgery and chemo died August 1993 (Pancreatic Cancer)
Dad diagnosed July 2007, chemo only died January 2008 (Pancreatic Cancer)

dllfb · Regular Joined: 24 Jul 2008 Posts: 42

Thanks for your kind words.
Well one week after the aspiration and biopsy we have not heard nothing...they told me three or four days for results. So this am I could not take it any more. I have been sitting around here doing nothing with worry for the last two days...thanks goodness my two boys were with their father this last week and didn't have to see my state. I had all these things planned to do this week and have done nothing. I keep telling myself that I must not get sick over this cause I have four depending on me...besides my boys...my elderly mom and dad as well.
Anyway,l could not wait any longer and headed for my mds office. My legs were shaking so. His office was full of clients so I asked the secretary if any word was had about the biopsy or aspiration. She found the paperwork that just arrived looked at it and said it was unconclusive....
I asked what that meant she said she thought it meant that more testing was to be done....anyway...I told her to have my md call me before he left for the long weekend because I need some clarification.
He called at around 2pm and told me that he had been talking to the surgeon for clarification and the exact words that were given on the liquid
they took from the liver location was...dead tissue found on the liver with malignant tendencies....now they have forwarded the results to a cancer hospital and we must wait two more weeks for more specifics. The more I read the word "tendencies"...the more I think of it as another coverup word to say maybe it is cancer maybe it's not.????....I'm just wondering about any of your thoughts???? Does a bruise or a blood clot have dead tissue? Does anything else like a cyst? I've read hear and there that tumours don't have liquid....this did. Just hoping that maybe my mom's fall last Sept or Oct has left her with a clot or something that they are seeing and it's not actually cancer. Ya know....when my grandma was diagnosed with stomach cancer twenty years ago...she went for a barrium test on the Friday and on the Monday we got the call that she had cancer. I don't get all this waiting???? Thanks for the ear..eyes.
God bless you!

brainman · Posted: Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: can an abscess be cancer?

"tendencies" is a very tricky word in medicine. It does indicate a degree of uncertainty but it is also very specific... the cells look like they have the potential to become cancer cells. I know, my clarification also has some uncertainty in it. But in the eyes of your doctor, "tendencies" means a lot more than it does to you or me. Don't get too worried about this. After all, one thing the report did not say is that you definitely have cancer.

Waiting can be so hard Sad

.
_________________
Jim
Site Administrator and long-term cancer survivor
1992 Astrocytoma grade 2, left motor strip
2005 Recurrence this time said to be an Oligodendroglioma grade 3, same location.
My Story Part 1: http://cancerforums.net/viewtopic.php?p=7350
My Story Part 2: http://cancerforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=8029
Blog http://jimhawkinsport.blogspot.com/

dllfb · Regular Joined: 24 Jul 2008 Posts: 42

Yes Jim...that's what I thought ... there is nothing definitely definite there. But I did not think about "malignant tendencies" in the sense it was used to mean that this dead tissue has the potential of turning into cancer as you indicated...I thought more that it meant that the dead tissue has characteristics of cancer...but then I wondered isn't scar tissue or internal bruising or other things...are they considered dead tissue as well?

brainman · Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 5:16 am Post subject: Re: can an abscess be cancer?

Believe it or not, scare tissue and bruised tissue are still very much alive. Scare tissue is healed tissue whereas bruised tissue is still in the process of healing. At least that is a close layperson's description. Dead or necrotic tissue is, well, dead... no more life in it and it is undergoing rapid decay.

It is a little puzzling how dead cells can show a "malignant tendency".
_________________
Jim
Site Administrator and long-term cancer survivor
1992 Astrocytoma grade 2, left motor strip
2005 Recurrence this time said to be an Oligodendroglioma grade 3, same location.
My Story Part 1: http://cancerforums.net/viewtopic.php?p=7350
My Story Part 2: http://cancerforums.net/viewtopic.php?t=8029
Blog http://jimhawkinsport.blogspot.com/

dllfb · Regular Joined: 24 Jul 2008 Posts: 42

Ok Jim...scared again....what can be examples (causes) of dead tissue in the liver then? Do you know?

idobelieveinfairies · Posted: Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:44 am Post subject: Re: can an abscess be cancer?

Could it be cirossis? The is another forum medhelp.org maybe you could do some reading there also on the liver.

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